I received an ever so pleasant comment on the She Plays for the Other side post I did. I debated on providing this troll with more food and decided to mention he/she/it because there are people who really believe what the troll wrote.
But there are many reasons why this comment is inaccurate. And just to be clear I don't believe the Jews/Israel are above criticism, but there are legitimate ways in which to criticize. One of the key requirements is that the criticism be balanced.
For example if you claim to be Pro-Peace and you condemn the separation wall then you also need to be very clear in your condemnation of terrorism. Without balance you lose legitimacy.
That doesn't mean that there need to be an equal number of claims for each side, but you cannot fix all of the blame on one group only.
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13 comments:
Nobody engages in self-criticism more than Jews. For all I know, that cretinous troll on the other post was a Jew too.
Only a Jew will look at a bloodthirsty murderer holding a knife up to his throat and think, hmm...maybe I deserve to die.
It wouldn't surprise me at all.
Psychotoddler, you have a good point. The question is, why do we do that to ourselves?+
Anonymous,
You are still misguided and you do a fine job of spinning but the reality is not as you suggest it to be.
I am not obligated nor required to educate you about this. The reasoning is that any time we start to engage you pull out the term "propaganda" and claim it to be a tool that is used to support actions that you find reprehensible.
But the if you had any intellectual honest and a shred of moral relativism you would not make specious suggestions that because others have used terror it is a viable tool and moral tool because that is what you are saying.
The reality is that there has been a continuous Jewish presence, that much of the land that is disupted was purchased and that there is a real question about what is truly Muslim land and what is not.
Many are currently fighting for the restablishment of the caliphate, which as you know would include parts of Spain among other bits.
I could go on but I think that feeding you with more attention is probably unhealthy because you either haven't the ability or are unwilling to provide a balanced discussion.
And by balance I mean that you start by claiming that all of Israel is illegitimate.
That automatically ends the conversation because what is the point of dialogue if you are so misguided.
So call my posts blather, accuse me of arrogance or whatever else makes you comfortable. Your own posts sound good to you, but come off very poorly to others.
And terrorism is what this is all about. There are many who have suffered for longer who never used violence to try and achieve their goals.
I feel badly for you. Too bad you are so fixed upon propaganda and hate.
The good news is that there are many of us who will still fight for you and provide with shelter even when you are blind and without reason.
Have a nice day.
Mr. Troll,
You are a funny lad. You say
In order to defend a wrong thing you require a patient listener that you can immerse in perversions of truth and distortions of reality.
I can say the same thing about you.
You also said (By the way, I never said terrorism was a "viable" or "moral" tool. Why lie to me about my own words? I said it has been redefined and blown out of all proportion in order to bypass reason and control the public through their emotional responses to it.)
See, you took roughly 30 words in which you didn't condemn it, just tried to pass it off as not being all that serious and that demonstrates questionable morality.
It is reasonable to have emotional responsese to terror. It is reasonable to be angry, scared and upset about people who think nothing of shooting pregnant woman in the head and stomach as well as her four daughters.
It is also reasonable to set aside your emotions to devise a reasonable response to such actions. But let's not play moral relativity games. You claim that the Israel is an illegitimate state which is really why this conversation is pointless, but let's move on for a moment.
Your claim that Israel is illegitimat is how you justify terror. I haven't used your words against you, I used you lack of words. If you had a stronger moral compass you would condemn it and you have not. That is shameful.
You can couch your views in sunshine and roses. You can clothe them in academic sounding bric-a-brac and it doesn't change the reality that you lack of condemnation of murder speaks volumes.
The fact is, if you had any real argument to support your views, you would have introduced it.
This is blather you throw out as a smokescreen. The root of the problem is that you have already decided that Israel's existence is wrong and in doing so you refuse to condemn terror.
It is stupid and foolish to engage in such a discussion. I don't need to justify Israel's existence. It is a legitimate state, just as the US or Canada or Britain. If you want to make the case that it is not than you are welcome to do so, but I am not going to given any credence to your propaganda because if you really had anything than you would have shared it.
You'll fight for me and give me shelter? What kind of melodramatic crap is this? That means that even though you act like a moron I would help you. that means that there are people in the world that will cut your throat just for being Jewish and that I am willing to help even if you views are different. And if you think that is melodramatic I can introduce you to people who never believed that Germany could have acted as it did or how about speaking with Daniel Pearl or Nick Berg's families.
You and your juvenile hatreds, sick lies and corrupt wars have nothing to do with me.
I know I am a bad man because I said that murder is wrong and pointed out that you refuse to.
Sounds to me like someone really hurt you. Maybe a good hug and some love would help put a smile back on that face.
Let's face it, you're a moral child, you're concerned with your "side" as you put it, and this concern supersedes any ability you might have to think objectively or humanely.
Of course I am interested in making sure that my people are taken care of and that we are not hurt. It is called compassion and caring and I suggest you invest in some.
You can try and marginalize my position, but you'll notice that I have stated that Palestinians are people and that it is fair to criticize Israel as long as you do so with some balance and objectivity.
You exhibit neither so it is easier for you to try and say nothing and blame me for the lack of dialogue.
And I might add, this will to ignorance and belligerence is a disgrace to Jewish ideals.
If you knew something about Jewish ideals you would have shared that already. You are a very angry fellow and I hope that you get the help you need because that anger will eat you up inside.
Have a good day. :)
Dude,
All I have done is provide you with a forum with which you can spew out tired canards such as this one:
the ability to direct (western) public opinion through innumerable ties and ownership of the media.
I know, Jews run the media and because of this we get away with everything blah, blah, blah. Good to know that Ted Turner and Rupert Murdoch do exactly as we ask. Your comment is patently false and foolish.
You hate the facts and consistently try to twist them by accusing me of not responding.
How do you justify the long list of human rights abuses, violations of UN resolutions, things such as home demolitions, revenge killings, forced mass relocations, denial of medical care etc. ect. etc. etc?
The UN is a joke and has been for years. The oil cartel wields tremendous power and uses it to influence resolutions left right and center. The UN Human Rights commission memberships is composed of some of the worst violators of human rights. UN workers watched as Israeli soldiers were kidnapped by Hezbollah, taped the episode and refused to hand over the tapes. That is a United Nations for you.
Several Jewish organizations rabidly condemn Israel and consider it a curse on the Jewish people. How about specifics. How about some details. You offer none and lob accusations as if this was some kind of star chamber. But let's go from this point. I am proud that there are Jewish groups who are committed to making the world a better place, who issue criticism of the gov't and can do without fear of being arrested and tried for sedition. It is the sign of democracy.
As for home demolitions and the like there are some legitimate concerns regarding those, but at the same time many have been legitimate. Some have camoflauged tunnels that were used to smuggle in weapons and other contraband. There is no clear line that can be drawn on this, in spite of your desire to do so.
Palestinians have basically no military, no voice in the media, no power to resist an organized, powerful, wealthy, and hateful foreign invader at their doorstep every day of their lives. This is the situation as it stands before anyone says the word terrorism.
Blah, blah, blah. This sounds good and it makes you feel better because you can justify and rationalize horrible actions, but it doesn't mean that it is true nor accurate. If Israel could act with impunity and did not care as you suggest there would be no question of withdrawal,no talk of anything because there wouldn't need to be.
Pretty much every group concerned with human rights has condemned Israel. Blanket statements are great, but they lack substance as does your comment. They have issued reports in which Israel has been taken to task for various practices, but they have also lauded an Israeli judicial system which provides an opportunity for grievances to be filed and tried within a court of law.
And even when I've carefully explained the misuse of the word to you, you try to twist my words and claim I "justify terrorism". Do you even know you're lying or is this just a reflex with you? Understand, I despise terrorism. Which is why I despise Israel treating an entire population as if they're debris. Because ISrael ruins lives and murders systematically, with expensive weapons and uniforms, is the end result any different?
Moral relativity is a problem for you. You do not understand nuance and you apply unreasonable and unbalaced expectations. There is a reason that the IDF frequently conducts house to house searches. It is a safer and more humane way of dealing with people. They could use the same tactics that the Russians use in Chechnya and they do not.
When the Palestinians attacked King Hussein he simply lined them up and shot them. Hafez Al-Assad wiped out entire villages for engaging in dissent.
Israel does not employ any of these methods, but of course in a bout of intellectual dishonesty you refuse to acknowledge that. I have to berate you repeatedly before you even said that terrorism was wrong and even then you serve as an apologist.
I was also aghast reading about Civil War "bushwackers" who were arguably more violent and psychopathic than any modern Arabs.
It is sickening that you are still trying to justify the actions of terrorists and still very telling the way you try to marginalize it.
Or how about this ditty:
I reject the WORD as too loaded, overused, and misused to be conducive to reasonable thought on this subject. Sometimes you cannot sugarcoat words. You have to accept and acknowledge that some things are wrong. If the terrorists only attacked military installations it would be one thing, but they do not. They murder indiscriminately, women, children, the elderly and these actions include Jew and Arab, Palestinian and Israeli. Until you can acknowledge this you will continue to be branded as a terrorist apologist.
How about playing with some other facts just for kicks. Jordan was carved of land. It was simply created a relatively short time before Israel. But you don't say anything about that. You don't comment on the fact that from 1948-67 Gaza was occupied by Egypt and Jordan occupied East Jerusalem and the West Bank. There is no condemnation from you of those governments for not offering land to the Palestinians.
Or how about the fact that following WWII there were millions of refugees, a population sizeably larger than the Palestinians and yet within a few years of the war that refugee problem was gone. How about acknowledging the role of 22 Arab nations in refusing to help the Palestinians.
How about dealing with Arab incitement in which they refer to Jews as a cancer upon the world and invoke cries of the blood libel. How about dealing with the poisoning of minds so that they can try to justify their own two bit dictatorships and keep their people angry at someone other then the dictators that run those countries.
See you never mention any of those things. You don't really compare Israel to any other country. You don't offer any balance to this discussion. There is no apple to apples comparison, no way for you to make a reasoned and logical assessment of this and that is part of why you are considered to be a troll. And I am guilty of feeding the troll.
And no, there is noone where I live, or anywhere I've ever gone who will slit my throat because I'm Jewish. I know, if it doesn't impact you than it doesn't count. If it is not in your face than you do not care. How sad.
I introduced the Holocaust because it was relevant to the topic. You dismiss it because you are afraid to really dig in. You are afraid that your straw man argument will blow away in the wind. You say that the only place in the world where you might have to be afraid because you are Jewish is the Middle East. Do you understand how twisted that is. That you apologize for acts of violence against yourself and others because of a shared religion. If you went to Kuwait/Syria/Lebanon wherever and were murdered you would excuse it and apologize for it because you say that in the Middle East where Jews have disgraced themselves.
Digusting and morally bankrupt.
The bottom line is that unlike you I can view the world without rose colored glasses. I can look at Israel and offer criticism. I can view the gov't and acknowledge that there are actions that I take issue with as I can do with any gov't because they are run by people and people are fallible.
I am not so filled with self-loathing that I cannot use logic and reason. I am not so blinded by lack of moral character that I have to resort with simple rhetoric. On the other hand I am not so sure about you.
My recommendation is to really start reading and educating yourself. I don't expect that you are going to wake up and become a rabid Zionist or that you'll even be any sort of supporter of Israel, but with a little education and intellectual honesty you might have a leg to stand on.
Anonymous: You spew nothing but propaganda. This is evident in your ramblings because you didn't address even one of the many historical facts about the region that Jack brought up.
You completely skirted the valid and pertinent points Jack made about the UN, the nature of the creation of Jordan, and the treatment of the Palestinians by the rest of the Middle East.
History is obviously not your strong suit.
Dude! I like the response! So your basic premise is, If I wholly disapprove of Israel, I have a problem.
No, as I have said many times you can criticize Israel. I do and so many others because it is a democracy and part of a democratic society is being open to dissent. The problem you have is that you lack balance. You only point your finger in one direction. That and your tone makes it seem like you have an irrational problem with Israel.
If I cite evidence that you've heard before and armored yourself against, that evidence is "canards"... When you use lies and propaganda to support your position what else I am to call it. A spade is a spade.
Uh, the media: the world's four largest conglomerates CEOd by Zionists. That's a fact.
If it is a fact than why don't you support it with evidence. Provide their names and prove that they are Zionists and then prove that they demonstrate bias. You will not and cannot do so. Shout a little louder about this and the facts will still prove that you are not familiar with them.
What's more, you ever hear anything negative or even "balanced" about Israel on the nightly news?
Sure, that is why there are organizations like Honest Reporting and Camera. I don't agree with all of their positions, but they do a good job of presenting inconsistencies. Again there are no specifics here, you just prattle on and that works with people who are uneducated about the topic.But because I called for specifics I'll refer you to this link where you will find an example of problems with the media.
You ever hear a discussion or mention of Zionism and what it means to us Americans? Many times. I have heard both sides and I would wager that I could do a better job of arguing your position than you do because I am in touch with facts and can cite chapter and verse. For example I could bring up the Arab riots of 1929 and 1936 where they murdered Jews. That was well before the 1948 declaration of the modern state of Israel. But you'll look at this and give me more of the crap about being a victim.
Or maybe we can discuss why the Mufti of Jerusalem was allied with the nazis.
You ever hear a discussion of the pro-Israel lobby dictating U.S. policy? I have read the ridiculous comments made by people like yourself in which the false allegation is made. Are you familiar with James Baker? I have a friend who was there when he said "fuck the Jews." That was in reference to comments made by Dubya senior to Shamir about freezing settlements.
The reality is that if there was any truth to this the policy coming out of the US would be far different and would have been for years.
Or about the unreal amounts of money the U.S. sends over there? I never have. What about the $2 billion we sent to Egypt or the vast amounts of aid sent to any numeber of other countries. See if you want to make an accusation you have to support it with facts. Where are yours?
The proof is in the punch. Yes, Jews control the media. It's not really a secret, it's just commonly dismissed as a ludicrous idea; which it is, but it's true. Do some research.
I don't have to do any research. If there was truth to this and it was that obvious you would have supplied it. You claim to be half-Jewish. Which half is it, the top or bottom.
What Jewish groups despise Israel? Do a search on "Jews against Zionism" or any similar term. There are many. What do you think, I made this up? You exaggerated. You used a pejorative term to try and make a point. But the significance of the point is meaningless because you apply none. There are groups like the Neuterei Karta that have a problem with Israel for religious reasons. They are a very small group. There are other groups that disagree with policy and have created organizations. I have encountered antisemites who gleefully quote things like this to me, the problem is that if you look at the numbers they are so small as to be meaningless.
And I didn't say your version of anti-Semitism doesn't impact me, I said it doesn't exist. It's a melodramatic fantasy of yours.
Oh really. Why was Daniel Pearl murdered? Was it because they hate the Wall Street Journal. Were they upset because they hated his musical talent. Your problem with this is serious. You are in one of two groups. Those who say that the Earth is flat because they have never tried to sail around the world or those in denial.
Look antisemitism is not what it once was, but it still exists and it is still an issue. It is not my fault that you choose to bury your head in the sand.
Jews have more advantages, by far, than any other group in today's world. Accept it, nobody's out to get you and if you're disliked, it's probably you personally. Again, no facts. There is no substance. You remind me of a pouting child who stamps his foot and insists that his version of the truth is accurate because he said so.
Facts are important and you have none.
And terrorism: in my first comment on it I said, "I strongly disapprove." Duh. What I've maintained, and what is evidently beyond you,is that I reject your simplistic, narrow, and dishonest definition of it.
You may think that you said something like that but your words betray you. You tried to marginalize things by suggesting that Jesse James and company committed acts that were much worse. And by trying to marginalize it you neutralize your position. It is still morally bankrupt.
WHat about this?
"But a few relatively powerless, desperate characters cannot create human misery on the scale that a powerful state with violent, utterly inhumane policies can. Religious zealots are asses, that's agreed. Governments and militaries run by religious or other zealots, however, are nightmares."
No response to that, which was an attempt to illustrate the difference between Palestinian terrorist and Zionist terrorists.
See you went broad there. You took a paintbrush and flung it at the wall to see what sticks and there is not much that you can find. If I was you I would have spoken at the problem of collective punishment and debated whether that caused more problems. See that is called a fact, I just threw you a bone. But at the same time I can turn around and offer more.
What do you think would have happened if the Palestinians followed Gandian principles or Dr. Martin Luther King. What would have happened if they engaged in nonviolent protest. Do you have an answer.
Or how about addressing my earlier point about Jordan and Egypt relative to the land they occupied. You do know that the PLO didn't develop until around 1961 or so. I am drawing a blank on that. Prior to its entrance you had terrorism that was state sponsored and committed by Arabs of varying nations.
Or maybe you want to address my comments about Jordan, you know the place that was called Transjordan and was created by the British out of the Palestine Mandate. Why is there no outcry about that.
I've got a date but I'll get into your numerous nitpicking details about Israel which you use to smother principle, next time.
I operate on a simple principle which is based upon facts that I can support, not spurious allegations. Remember the ultimate defense against libel is truth. I strongly urge you to educate yourself and present factual support for the silly claims you make. I wonder if you are in college now because I swear that I heard these same remarks during my university days.
The bottom line for me is this. You do not provide facts. You do not present a balanced argument. You have a problem with moral relativism in that you qualify terrorist actions. I speak of the horror of shooting a pregnant woman and her children and you respond with comments in which you say What I've maintained, and what is evidently beyond you,is that I reject your simplistic, narrow, and dishonest definition of it.
Call me slow, but what else do you call murdering a pregnant woman and her children. Maybe an execution, but if that is not terror than nothing is.
I am growing tired of this nonsense. If you haven't any fact and insist on utilizing antisemitic tripe it is probably time to end this discussion because you haven't anything to offer.
Excellent post: Many have the misconceptions that you addressed, thinking either that they must balance everything by number or 'because my side is right, their wrongs do not count'. (Poor English, I'm well aware)
I also am very impressed with the way you respond: Essentially itemizing each portion and giving a well-thought out, logical response to each statement. This leaves no room for misconceptions or people taking statements out of context and trying to exploit them in a way you did not mean. Only those who choose to blind themselves or purposely miss the point are unable to respond properly to such an answer. This allows others to clearly see the strengths (and weaknesses) of your arguments vs. the person you are debating with. I've rarely seen others do this - kudos to you.
Hi Ezzie,
Thanks. I debated whether to engage here and opted for a brief discussion for the purpose of just poking a couple of holes in his remarks.
I don't expect him to change his mind, but there may be lurkers and you never know.
What you guys see as an analytical, intelligent retort, I see as tedious, directionless nitpicking.
I understand that you find reviewing factual evidence to be tedious. And I recognize why it must be frustrating to fight a battle you cannot win, because without facts you have nothing which leads into your next comment.
I mean, I give you a summary of information I’ve absorbed, assuming that it’s a given that I’m not inventing it, that it’s my interpretation of facts, and that being the case that it’s simply a waste of time to enumerate names, places, specific reports, etc. Especially when you will dismiss them immediately as propaganda.
That would be poor scholarship on my part and a waste of time for everyone. There are few things that I just accept in life and I do not expect any mature adult with a modicum of ability to engage in critical thought and logical analysis of fact to do so either. There are scientists who claimed that the earth was flat and that the sun revolved around it who made the same suggestion that people should just accept their claims.
The fact that you tried to skirt around it is just one more indication that you do not have as strong a grasp upon the facts as you would like. This is why I keep hammering you on it. This is why I am going to remind you again that you never responded to my comments about Egypt and Jordan and their involvement.
Each response of yours begins to stink of more desperation and the remarks become more outlandish. You are running out of steam, but I'll address another couple of points of yours just for fun.
Uh, the CEOs of the four largest conglomerates, (at least as of 2002 when the information I have here was dated) are Gerald Levin, Michael Eisner, Summer Redstone, Edgar Bronfman sr. and jr., respectively of Time Warner, Disney, Viacom, and Vivendi Universal.
Do you want to know why this point is insignificant and meaningless? Because you claim that just because they are Jewish they must be Zionist. Yet many times you have mentioned Jews who are against Zionism as support for your specious claims, not to mention your own proclamation of being Jewish. So what we have here is you saying in one breath that there are many Jews who are antiZionist and in the next a claim that just being Jewish means that you are a Zionist. Clearly these claims are contradictory and they both cannot be true. So we have to acknowledge that this is a false claim, a red herring designed to elicit a response based upon emotion and not fact or logic.
But let me address something else that makes me wonder about you. Do you engage in any fact checking. Are you aware that Gerald Levin left Time Warner three years ago. Check out this link. So not only do you engage in poor logic but your fact checking is nonexistent. So returning to your initial comment there is no reason to accept any of your facts as being accurate and or truthful.
I believe you on the other hand begin with what you want to believe, and fight tooth and nail to make it so, regardless of evidence. Your premise has no integrity and you sustain it only with dishonest debating tactics (pretending not to be aware of facts which are more or less general knowledge, especially for a Jewish person on this subject).
You know I saw this exact sentence on another website, or something very close to it. Are you engaging in plagiarism? You know it is possible that my memory may fail me on this, but I already poked a half dozen holes in your argument so who knows.
And Daniel Pearl a victim of anti-Semitism? What a joke, you bring up a guy that got taken hostage in order to be used as a bargaining chip by extremists, and lost out.
What demands were made for him? And why did they force him to announce that he was Jewish on the snuff film that they made. You are missing the boat and drowning in misinformation.
Now, your very specific, small evidence re Israel. You cite Arab riots wherein Jews were killed before Israel was an official state. Why is this relevant, it just illustrates they were clearly not wanted and Palestine was clearly an impractical choice for a homeland. Whose case are you making? And what else, some absurd particulars of disputes over this or that portion of land? Who cares? How does this effect the overall principle of whether the intentions of the Jews in Israel were or were not ethical?
Earlier you tried to make the case that many of the problems in the US were due to the US foreign policy and support of Israel. This demonstrates that you are again wrong. These murders took place many years before the state was born.
And you ask how this affects the intentions of the Jews in Israel. Well let me turn that around on you and ask how you would feel if an unprovoked riot took place and your neighbors set fire to your home and murdered people indiscriminately. It just might impact how you responded to things and maybe it might make you more aggressive or maybe not.
Your Ben-Gurion quote is taken out of context so that you can try and fit it into a neat little box, a tactic you accuse me of using. But let's focus on that for a moment and then return to how you never addressed my questions about Jordan being carved out of the Palestine mandate. It was just created out of thin air. What is the difference between Jordan and Israel or can you not deal with facts.
And honestly, you cite James Baker saying “fuck the Jews” as evidence of anything except that James Baker said “fuck the Jews”? So what? It ultimately has nothing to do with whether or not Zionists can exert influence over U.S. policy.
Ok, it is clear that you not only a limited understanding of the facts but no understanding of the significance of a statement made by the Sec of State. But that is ok because you ignored the point I made and the facts surrounding it.
Let me sum this up again. You continue to rail against me because I support Israel. You are irritated because I use facts to support my claims and that I will not just accept your facts, even though we proved that they were incorrect and illogical.
Furthermore you are upset because I called you on your moral ambiguity. Game over. You lose. I am done. This is my final answer to you. You are not the first person to believe these things and you may not be the last, but in the end you guys always lose.
Good luck to you and I hope that college teaches you more than it has.
More importantly in regards to your will to stupidity, if you wanted to, you could find the same information (I gave you the sites for starters) and apply yourself to coming to your own HONEST conclusions.
See, here is why I want to end this. You call it nitpicking when I point out factual errors. You accuse me of refusing to come to an honest conclusion because my own does not agree with yours. So what we really see is the degeneration of debate because you are unwilling to deal with fact.
And we see a sad attempt to spin it by claiming that you supplied it. But remember that I already pointed out that your facts are wrong. I proved that you supplied misinformation and that it would be poor scholarship to allow that to stand.
If you are familiar with cooking than you know that sometimes you can substitute margarine for butter and the recipe still works. But there are times in which substituting ingredients changes things and the final product will not taste good nor resemble the cake you hoped to bake and you my friend have a sour roll.
So if it makes you feel good to say that I nitpick and to accuse me of having to have the last word, ok. You are right, I am a bad guy for pointing out that you use misinformation and inaccurate, out of date evidence to support your comments. And I am a bad guy for pointing logical inconsistencies.
But the bottom line is that I didn't have to resort to ad hominem attacks and spin to win this debate. You lost the game when you stopped relying upon the truth and resorted to fantasy. Again good luck to you, I win. ;)
Utterly insignificant details that include your misinformation, also known as using inaccurate and out of date material.
The simple fact is that you used lies and misinformation to try and make a point.
Every time you come back you do the same thing. There is no fact to support your allegations and no substance to your posts.
And your need to respond to try and disprove this proves that I won because you still do not use any facts.
You have ignored every question and focused on smoke screens. If you had anything to offer here there wouldn't be a need for diversionary tactics.
You lose, Ameriplan my ass.
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